Curse

alexander92 · May 14, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

I know there's a ton of topics like this .I'm trying to decide weather to main my dervish or my assasin,considering which one is the more effective in pve and the obvious answer right now is assasin.But in the mesmer update preview they said that dervish and the paragon are next in line to get updated and i'm wondering if the dervish can actualy become better than the assasin and the warrior as a melle proffesion.I mean after big updates ritualists have got very powerfull and now are meta and mesmers seem to have the same fate.I'm thinking that dervishes may also become very powerful and if that would become a reality i'd like to play my dervish rather than my assasin since i like the ideea behind the dervish class better.Anyway the question is:Can the dervish get such a buff to become as good or better than the assasin for pve play?

Ratman · May 14, 2010, 04:18 PM // 16:18

You'll never know. I would say try both and take the one you like most.

Personally i prefer the assassin because i always hate it when i need to prepare myself for battle with enchantments.
The assassin attack chains can be annoying sometimes, especialy when your target dies in the middle of the chain.

If you realy want to know if the dervishes will get a big update, you'll just have to wait.

FoxBat · May 14, 2010, 06:57 PM // 18:57

People whine like a dervish is a mesmer or elementalist or something. Scythes do huge damage, so what if a sin or warrior does marginally better with them. If you like scythes Sins are going to deprive you of Save Yourselves, that's enough reason to roll derv.

alexander92 · May 14, 2010, 07:06 PM // 19:06

mesmers and elementalists both found their niche.They are used in Doa/Deep/Urgoz spike teams,mesmers had their time in the old cryway teams,ele's can heal and prot better than monks spamming basicly everything like crazy.Mesmers are great in pvp

.In general pve play mesmers and eles are still better than the dervish so telling me that people "whine" for nothing doesn't really makes sense.If other classes can wield a scythe better than a derv than why pick a derv?just because a derv can have a scythe and carry sy? Sy isn't that great on a derv bar anyway,paragon,warriors and dagger sins all spam sy way better than a derv.A warrior can have a scythe and sy as well and he's still better than the derv.So do you think dervishe's dont need a buff

?

fireflyry · May 14, 2010, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Sins are better.

Period.

Seriously though why place limitations on yourself?It takes a minimal amount of time to max out a char outside titles and you have already chosen two classes to focus on.

Pimp them both out and have fun, then roll another.

If your defining your game on having the latest "uber" class and cookie cutter build your either in a bad guild or pugging to much, or both.

shinta_himura · May 14, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

In general PvE play, they are both great. However Dervishes are amazingly powerful now (they can cut HM enemies down to 1/2 HP or less in one attack not including deep wound), and if they're actually being buffed they're going to be even more incredible.

Assassins can run speedclears though as terra tanks or whatever.

Gift3d · May 14, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

sins in pve make better use of a scythe than a dervish ever could. mysticism is a completely worthless primary attribute.

Gennadios · May 14, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

The Dervish was never meant as primary physical damage dealer. They were meant as a close-quarters nuker. That alone means that Derv =/= Sin.

If the "upcoming" (5 months from now is not upcoming) Derv buff does nothing but make them more viable for tanking, then ANet will have failed and 90% of derv skills will still end up completely useless for the role.

If ANet delivers an actual decent skill update, then the Derv will revert to the caster class he was meant to be, in which case you have to decide whether you'd rather run a physical attacker or a caster.

One way or the other, the big D is too much of an unknown at this point. Roll with the sin.

Shayne Hawke · May 14, 2010, 09:34 PM // 21:34

If you've already got a Sin and a Derv, play whichever one you feel is more fun now.

If you've only got one or the other, or neither, wait until the next update comes out to choose.

Eragon Zarroc · May 15, 2010, 12:24 AM // 00:24

yeah, don't play one cause u think it might get updated. just play whichever u enjoy most now ;-)

saint666 · May 15, 2010, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

sins in pve make better use of a scythe than a dervish ever could. mysticism is a completely worthless primary attribute.

Mysticism is not useless, it does whats it's supposed to do, provide fuel for enchantment juggling. The problem is with the skills that's supposed synergize with it's function, doesn't do it very well. Reduce the recharge, casting time, energy cost and duration of dervish PBAoE enchantments/spells with a rebalance of the damage, change scythe attack functions to give a bonus(additional aoe, conditions, ias, heal, mana, etc.) for removing an enchantment when attacking to promote synergy between dervish attacks, enchantments and Mysticism.

Dervishes can be an effective pve frontliner that plays very differently from warriors/assassins with some skill tweaking rather than a complete makeover which some people suggest that would turn them into an uninspired warrior/assassin copy which has been overdone already. Dervishes are supposed/should be frontline nukers with the ability to take a few hits before having to be healed.

FoxBat · May 16, 2010, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexander92

ele's can heal and prot better than monks

true but they can't do damage, which was more the context of this discussion.

Quote:

In general pve play mesmers and eles are still better than the dervish so telling me that people "whine" for nothing doesn't really makes sense.

Which part, the wonderful single-digit damage the eles can pump out while achieving nothing that enfeebling blood doesn't do, or mesmers sitting around hoping that their foes use some skills before the rest of the party melts them? Unless your bar is AP + PvE skills this isn't remotely true.

Quote:

If other classes can wield a scythe better than a derv than why pick a derv?

Welcome to caster classes and soul reaping. Except necros primary skills are so good they rarely bother abusing secondaries outside of /rt heros.

By contrast the fact that your base DPS is 5% lower doesn't matter when you're under Strength of Honor, splinter weapon, barbs/orders or even judge's insight, pushed up further by asuran scan. It doesn't even matter if you consider the scythe the weakest melee weapon, shit dies fast when you can key off that many buffs, you make spirit spammer rits sad by compare.

It's not that dervs are lacking anything, it's that warriors have a broken pve-only skill that grants infinite energy to a 2 pip class, and sins have a broken pve-only skill that gives them perma 33% IAS. Despite that dervs are already still neck-and-neck and just need something like an AoHM tweak to push them over the edge.

Quote:

just because a derv can have a scythe and carry sy? Sy isn't that great on a derv bar anyway,paragon,warriors and dagger sins all spam sy way better than a derv.

It's called adrenaline from every aoe scythe attack. And if you're leading an H/H party, there is no reason to roll A/D over something that can keep SY! up even at half-time. Especially now with fear me.

Cuilan · May 16, 2010, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

Mysticism is not useless, it does whats it's supposed to do, provide fuel for enchantment juggling. The problem is with the skills that's supposed synergize with it's function, doesn't do it very well.

That's basically saying that Mysticism is useless.

Not saying that dervish should or shouldn't have attack spam builds, but many players including myself hoped for more caster based play. Assassins have spells, but I would never call them casters unless I'm speaking literally.

saint666 · May 16, 2010, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

That's basically saying that Mysticism is useless.

Not saying that dervish should have attack spam builds, but many players including myself hoped for more caster based play. Assassins have spells, but I would never call them casters unless I'm speaking literally.

3/4 of dervish skills are spells, if they weren't meant to be primary front line casters with secondary melee complements then I don't know what they were trying to do when they designed the dervish. Warriors are pure melee, assassins are primary melee with secondary spell complements, whats the dervish? Dervishes are crappy casters and sub par melee because offensive dervish spells suck and they were never designed to be a primary melee class to begin with, not because of Mysticism. Dervish enchantments take little advantage of the primary attribute and dervish attack skills have little synergy with the enchantments. Mysticism enables you to cast, strip and recast enchantments endlessly, and most dervish skills are enchantments or enchantment dependent, it complements the class perfectly. The problem is that most offensive dervish enchantment(stuff like Grenth's Aura, and Sand Shards, Heart of Holy Flame) are on 12 to 20 second cool downs, so Mysticism only comes into play every 12 to 20 seconds, while critical strikes, expertise, strength comes into play with every attack skill and they are on 3-6 second cool downs. Imagine Heart of Holy Flame costing 5 energy, on a 5 second cool down, 1/4 cast and Pious Assault reverted to it's original form. With some buffs, dervishes can be just as viable as warriors/assassins with a different play style. Some people suggested that nerfing warriors/assassins would make dervishes more viable, all that does is take 2 adjusted classes and make them comparable to an unfinished class.

IMO, this is what the dervish needs to make it an effective front liner in pve thats not just a warrior/assassin copy:

Defensive/Buffing dervish enchantments that need to be maintained should have their cool downs increased and duration lengthened(10-20s cds, 20-30s duration)--making an IAS actually maintainable wouldn't hurt either. Offensive dervish enchantments(PBAoE Spells) that need to be juggled/striped need to have their energy cost, casting time, cds and duration reduced and dmg rebalanced(5e cost,1/4 cast, 5-10s cds, 5-10s duration), Dervish attack skills need to provide better bonuses/effects for either being enchanted or removing an enchantment (dmg,aoe,energy,conditions,health etc)--also making certain attack skills only remove dervish enchants would prevent the problem of the unwanted stripping of spells such as monk prots. Mysticism could use a slight buff a so it generates enough energy to fuel both attack skills and enchantment juggling used in conjunction, rather than be just enough for only enchantment spamming, but not so much that it becomes op. Limiting the the energy gain to only enchants cast by the dervish, would stop potential RoF spam by monks.(something like, gain 1 energy for every 2 ranks of mysticism (instead of 3), for every enchantment on you cast by you that ends)

Watermelon Tacos · May 16, 2010, 11:11 AM // 11:11

they should buff AoHM so that extra % damage is added on to the original for points in mysticism

reaper with no name · May 18, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Actually, mysticism is also useless for enchantment juggling, simply because it does not provide enough energy to cover for the enchantments, let alone the skills used to strip them.

On topic, go with the assassin. It's tried and true, whereas how powerful the dervish will be is an unknown (if Anet decides to buff them to be like they were during the NF beta, for example, it will either be one of the biggest buffs in the game's history or it won't be nearly enough to make the class useful). Plus, we don't know when it will occur. Could be next update (in 6 or so months, if experience with this new update schedule is any indication), or it could be three updates away.

saint666 · May 18, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Actually, mysticism is also useless for enchantment juggling, simply because it does not provide enough energy to cover for the enchantments, let alone the skills used to strip them.

On topic, go with the assassin. It's tried and true, whereas how powerful the dervish will be is an unknown (if Anet decides to buff them to be like they were during the NF beta, for example, it will either be one of the biggest buffs in the game's history or it won't be nearly enough to make the class useful). Plus, we don't know when it will occur. Could be next update (in 6 or so months, if experience with this new update schedule is any indication), or it could be three updates away.

It's currently underpowered, with a some buffs it can do what it was meant to do. With most derv enchants costing 10 energy and mysticism giving 5 energy max, you are losing energy every time you use an enchantment currently. If the enchantment cost was lowered to 5 energy and mysticism buffed to give 1 energy per 2 ranks, at rank 12 you'd be gaining 1 energy per enchant you cast, therefore you'd have infinite energy for enchantment juggling and extra energy for attacks. With Energy regeneration, a zealous scythe and Zealous Sweep you can spam scythe attacks with no problem.

JimmyTyme · May 18, 2010, 07:43 PM // 19:43

lol first of all, don't main just restricts your play-style to which character u previously liked, whether or not you favor them now,
I've got 12 characters (1 for each professions, 1 perma-pre, and one pvp-only) and i play them all ...almost equally and I've got atleast 1 set of 15k (or higher) armor on every character (except, paragon,perma-pre and pvp-only) some characters I have multiple sets (e.g. warrior who has 15k glads, primeval and Vabbian) and I find I can't stand playing one character for very long gets annoying and the game gets boring quickly.

Second of all... in my opinion the derv is already better for pve and is hardcore pwnage (though I use mine primarily for running) the assassin is too target specific and limited by the extreme amount of blocking in the game to only a few builds and is just too fragile, whereas the derv can hit multiple targets can easily pass blocking and does tons of damage (I frequently hit above 150 per hit at 33% ias) and the derv still has room to fit in more skills that increase their armor and the party-wide armor drastically

(also note: I don't use my warrior the most nor to I favor her just like the warrior armor sets as opposed to things like mesmers who's armor is shite)

reaper with no name · May 18, 2010, 08:03 PM // 20:03

You've clearly never heard of a scythe sin.

Long story short, the only advantage a dervish has over an assassin is that they can go /W for SY. Outside of that, assassins beat dervishes at everything, to the point of using their weapon and skills better than they do.

And warriors beat them at literally everything.

saint666 · May 18, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You've clearly never heard of a scythe sin.

Long story short, the only advantage a dervish has over an assassin is that they can go /W for SY. Outside of that, assassins beat dervishes at everything, to the point of using their weapon and skills better than they do.

And warriors beat them at literally everything.

The reason why dervishes are sub par to sins/wars is that they are trying to spam attacks when most of their skills are enchantments and their primary attribute designed for enchantments. Instead of competing with sins/wars at what they were designed to do(attack spamming) having dervishes better utilize their enchantments/primary attribute for a secondary source of damage would even the classes out. And warriors are more reliable compared to both these classes but they have little variation in play.